tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post8812042976240324284..comments2022-08-17T14:54:53.213+10:00Comments on Oaktree Anglican Vicar's Blog: On Abortion, Slavery and CensorshipMark Duriehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024979657079255161noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-51886086629131978292011-02-21T00:06:50.082+11:002011-02-21T00:06:50.082+11:00Mark, I was interested to read you are not opposed...Mark, I was interested to read you are not opposed to abortion in all situations. If you are willing to share I would be interested to know in what situations you think abortion is justified.<br /><br />Also, Melissa wanted me to show some tolerance and respect I think for mothers going through an abortion. Well, that statement could be thrown back at mothers; when are they going to show some tolerance and respect for the unborn human beings?Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-74797942380062397522010-12-16T10:51:09.938+11:002010-12-16T10:51:09.938+11:00Kirsty - I agree with you. Women are also victims...Kirsty - I agree with you. Women are also victims. I am so glad you have devoted time and care to thinking deeply about this important issue.Mark Duriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024979657079255161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-70851092727582138832010-12-16T08:59:18.336+11:002010-12-16T08:59:18.336+11:00Thank you for your frank and open discussion. As y...Thank you for your frank and open discussion. As you mention this is not a subject people want to talk about. Some people are ignorant of the problem of abortion through lack of information, others choose to ignore the available information. If we (pro-life) can make ourselves as knowledgeable about abortion as possible and are willing to discuss it with as many people as possible we have the chance to change society. I read Melissa's post above with some alarm. I am a woman with 3 small children. Before the Victoria legislation was passed I was neither pro-choice or pro-life , it was simply not something that I had not thought deeply about- I respected the choice argument though I valued human life. For over 18 months I have researched abortion- pro-life, pro-choice arguments, read testimonies, talked to woman and families affected by abortion and unplanned pregnancy. I have become strongly pro-life. I would challenge any other "fence-sitters" to do the same. Abortion is not a choice most woman want to make. Statistics show that over 60% of women who have abortions are coerced into having them and 80% do not receive counselling. There is a real need for women (and their partners and family) to be protected from abortion. The unborn child is not the only victim of abortion.Kirstynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-60725954880343658052010-12-16T08:54:49.351+11:002010-12-16T08:54:49.351+11:00Mark;
I am glad that there are many people out th...Mark;<br /><br />I am glad that there are many people out there that will stand up for the weak and unprotected.<br /><br />Your comment about having blood on our hands is chilling, unless we stand up and protest. God had the same charge for the watchmen of Israel. The Anglican Church (which we are members of) is not alone in refusing to take a stand, but I wonder if it is heading the way?<br /><br />As an American and personally involved with abortion (in the past), I can see a process happening that also seems to reflect what happened in America in 1860: Civil War. How many millions of people died and/or were severely affected by the single decision to support the individual choice over moral considerations? Will the civil war start in Victoria with similar effects? If so, would the real Christians be the first to volunteer for front-line conditions (with resulting casualities)?<br /><br />Keep up the excellent, GOD-inspired rebellion!<br /><br />Robert WicksteadRobert Wicksteadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-33639485160278163532010-12-13T16:04:55.342+11:002010-12-13T16:04:55.342+11:00Thanks, Mark! You're right, few people in Vict...Thanks, Mark! You're right, few people in Victoria actually realise how terrible our current laws are. At first, when I chat about the state of our current laws, I'm greeted with skepticism, but I'm finding if I follow up with a few interesting links, people are coming back amazed and appalled. They had no idea! Then they start to talk to their friends and so on. Things that are so obviously wrong, such as the denial of the right to pain relief for an unborn baby, and late-term and partial-birth abortions are great starting points. <br />Keep up the great work. God bless you.<br />AnneAnnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-90829456616480461622010-12-13T14:14:02.881+11:002010-12-13T14:14:02.881+11:00Dear Melissa - thanks for your response and questi...Dear Melissa - thanks for your response and questions. <br /><br />I am not opposed to abortion in all circumstances.<br /><br />You wrote "I am a little alarmed at your encounter with the 19 year old woman." Please do not be alarmed. If you re-read the post carefully, you will see that this was not my encounter, but a meeting between Alan Keyes, an Africa-American former presidential candidate, and a 19-year old person.<br /><br />Re: 'I am also critical of your response to the young woman, “there are many days on which I’m not entirely sure that people of your age are actual persons at all”.'<br />I think Keyes (not me) was trying to challenge the young person into thinking through the implications of presuming to decide whether someone else is a person or not. As she is willing to do this for the unborn, what principled objection could she have to someone else presuming to decide whether she herself is a person or not? <br /><br />I don't think Keyes was implying that only young people support abortion. Nor was he saying that younger people are less human because of their age: quite the opposite in fact. <br /><br />Re: "I find it interesting that you condemn a decision that you yourself will never have to make." Sometimes when people say something is 'interesting', what they really mean is that they don't like it. It seems you dislike men expressing a negative opinion about abortion.<br /><br />First, your argument is just like the argument used to support slavery - see point (4) above in the Supreme Court case about slavery. Point (4) was: "those who think slavery is morally wrong do not need to have slaves, but shall not impose their 'personal' opinion upon others". Your logic, applied to slavery, would imply that someone who does not own slaves should not criticize someone who does. <br /><br />Second, around 50% of aborted babies (less in China or India) are male. This fact alone makes abortion a men's issue. (You insist on seeing this solely from the viewpoint of the mother, not from the child.)<br /><br />Third, all aborted babies are human. I too am human. I presume to express opinions about the human rights of others, and not just my own personal human rights, or the rights of groups I belong to. Justice could never be achieved if people were only allowed to speak up for their own personal rights.<br /><br />Fourth, I am interested to explore how rigorously you apply the principle that only those who make a decision should be permitted to express critical views about it. Should women who are unable to become pregnant also be denied an opinion on abortion? And do you equally object to men being pro-choice, on the grounds that this is not a decision they have to make?Mark Duriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024979657079255161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-1408175657922724542010-12-13T13:27:37.265+11:002010-12-13T13:27:37.265+11:00I am interested to know if you are against abortio...I am interested to know if you are against abortion in all circumstances. A woman who has been placed in such a situation, as a result of sexual abuse for instance, cannot be denied the right to choose. A 13 year old girl who becomes pregnant as a result of a sexual assault does not have the emotional stability or maturity to deal with such a horrific and scarring experience, let alone to live with a reminder of that experience, and cannot provide adequate care to give that child quality of life.<br /><br />I am a little alarmed at your encounter with the 19 year old woman. I believe her point may have been how can you prefer the rights of a ‘potential person’ to an actual person, say a young girl who has been through a severely traumatic experience such as sexual assault. To deny any woman of her right to choose flies in the face of your main argument. Yes, unborn children are humans. African-Americans, or ‘Negroes’ are humans. WOMEN are humans. And sometimes humans are placed in unthinkable circumstances. The decision to terminate a pregnancy is a very personal, individual one, as are the reasons for doing so. Women do not make such decisions en masse – it is not a societal epidemic. Each individual case is different and should be treated as such, rather than judged in terms of a blanket moral code.<br /><br />I am also critical of your response to the young woman, “there are many days on which I’m not entirely sure that people of your age are actual persons at all”. What are you actually saying here, that an embryo or unborn fetus is more of an ‘actual person’ than a young adult who is still discovering their place in the world, who they are, who they want to be? Your lack of faith in young people is disheartening. You make it seem as though young people are the only ones who have, are in favour of, and are flippant about, abortions. What would you say of a middle-aged woman who makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy? Is she an ‘actual person’? What is it about 17- and 19-year olds that does not make them an ‘actual person’? These decisions are not only made in young adulthood. <br /><br />Like you, I welcome discussion of such topics in public arenas, however I find it interesting that you condemn a decision that you yourself will never have to make. I also find it interesting that two of your readers who left comments are also male. Peter, you say that our society ‘spouts on and on about rights, tolerance, respect and equality’, how about showing some for the women and young girls who may one day have to go through such a traumatic experience? <br /><br />MelissaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-45210540084556263942010-12-13T09:34:31.879+11:002010-12-13T09:34:31.879+11:00God bless you for speaking out in defense of the d...God bless you for speaking out in defense of the defenseless!<br /><br />JaneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-26644799713172000232010-12-12T16:50:40.884+11:002010-12-12T16:50:40.884+11:00I am outspoken on this topic too (particularly on ...I am outspoken on this topic too (particularly on facebook), and I get called nasty names even by Christians. It might keep me quiet for a little while while I recharge my batteries, but it doesnt shut me up. But I do find it amazing that people can be so cruel and disparaging to me, who is trying to be kind and stand up for the innocent. I cant understand that they can look at videos of actual abortions, and view pics of aborted babies, and tell me to mind my own business, it's a personal choice...Nicolehttp://www.please-dont-kill-babies.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-23798045949119919312010-12-05T22:43:12.609+11:002010-12-05T22:43:12.609+11:00It is encouraging to hear you standing firm for th...It is encouraging to hear you standing firm for the most vulnerable in our society.<br /><br />I must admit I find it really discouraging when even our churches fail to make a stand against abortion. You mention the Anglican church, but they are hardly the only one with their head in the sand. What price is our society paying in the spiritual realm based on our slaughter of so many babies.<br /><br />Our society spouts on and on about rights, tolerance, respect, equality, etc, and yet is willing to kill tens of thousands of babies each year in Australia. We are an awfully sick society.<br /><br />PeterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-12592503606794124932010-11-22T06:56:13.328+11:002010-11-22T06:56:13.328+11:00Dear David, the site http://www.lifevote.org.au/ g...Dear David, the site http://www.lifevote.org.au/ gives information on how to vote prolife and assist prolife candidates at the election this Sunday.Mark Duriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024979657079255161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-987734333551478420.post-5290961420633309562010-11-19T13:42:03.356+11:002010-11-19T13:42:03.356+11:00We have not met but I was at the New Cranmer pre-s...We have not met but I was at the New Cranmer pre-synod meeting where you outlined your abortion motion.<br /><br />Thank you for your latest blog post, ever since I first heard of the fact of abortion (over 20 years ago while in my teens) I have been horrified by societal attitudes to it. Unfortunately I have never had any idea how to do anything positive.<br /><br />I recently came across something called 'The Babes Project' based in Melbourne, I am hoping that may be one way I can get involved.<br /><br />One thing that particularly disturbs me is the way that even people who are opposed to abortion refuse to speak openly because they know people will be offended or hurt. It astounds me that otherwise 'right thinking', orthodox Christians will censor themselves rather than cause offense. If the offense was needless I would understand but not in this case.<br /><br />Once more thank you, and if you have any suggestions for how ordinary people like myself (and my wife) can make a difference in this situation please let me know.Davidnoreply@blogger.com